|SOME NOTES ON MEDIEVAL ENGLISH GENEALOGY|
Volume 2, page 361 (as modified by volume 14):
GUY DE BRYAN [d. 1390], s. and h. of Sir Guy de B., of Walwyns Castle, co. Pembroke, and of Tor Brian, Devon, ... suc. his father in 1349, being then 40 years old and more, ...
In volume 14 his age at his father's death was changed from 30 to 40. But his father's inquisition post mortem, dated Saturday after the Translation of St Thomas the Martyr [11 July] 1349, does give his age as 30 years and more [Calendar of Inquisitions post mortem, vol. 9, no 333 (p. 282)].
[This was pointed out by Paul Reed in October 1998.
Item last updated: 22 February 2005.]
Volume 2, page 361, note h (continuation on pages 362, 363):
It is to be observed that the Earls of Northumberland, from the marriage with Eleanor, granddaughter and heiress of Robert, Lord Poynings, styled themselves Barons Poynings, Fitz-Payne, and Bryan, probably owing to the fact as stated by Dugdale, Vincent, and other authorities, that Richard, Lord Poynings, father of the said Robert, Lord Poynings, m. "Isabel, da. and h. of Robert [Grey, afterwards Fitz Payn], Baron Fitz-Payne [so styled], by Elizabeth, da. and h. of Sir Guy de Bryan, Knt." The dates show that this Elizabeth cannot be the da. of Sir Guy de B. junior mentioned in the text, for inquisitions make her to be aged 4 years 9 Ric. II (1385/6), and 10 years of age 14 Ric. II (1390/1), whilst Isabel, her presumed child, is stated to be 30 years of age 16 Ric. II (1392/3); nor does it appear that any alliance ever took place between the descendants of Guy de Bryan, who was sum. to Parl. 24 Edw. III, and the family of Fitz-Payne, which could warrant such assumption, and "hence [it is evident] that the Earls of Northumberland never had ths slightest pretensions to the Barony of Bryan created by that writ, or to any other Barony of Bryan." See Nicolas, reproduced by Courthope.
It is stated in Banks' Baronia Anglica, vol. i, p. 138, that "Sir Guy de Bryan, the Baron, had two sisters, viz. Elizabeth, who m. Robert Fitz-Pain, and Philippa who wedded Sir John Chandos, neither of whom could have any pretensions to the Barony as not being descended from the Baron. The attributing the Barony of Bryan to the Percy family is [therefore] erroneous, but had the Barony been one descendible to the house of Percy, it would with the Barony of Percy, &c., have fallen into abeyance [if indeed not under attainder] between the 5 daughters and coheiresses [of the 7th Earl of Northumberland] from none of which the present Duke is descended." See also Coll. Top. et Gen., vol. iii, pp. 250-278.
Neither Nicolas, Courthope, nor Banks, appears to have considered the hypothesis that the Elizabeth through whom the Earls of Northumberland claimed the Barony of Bryan may have been da. of Sir Guy de B. who was sum. in 1350, and sister (and, if so, evidently an elder sister of the half-blood) of the sons abovementioned. It is calculated to give some support to the pedigree on which the Northumberland claim is based, that, Robert Fitz Payn is a party to a settlement made upon the aforementioned William and Philip, younger sons of the man sum. in 1350. (Somerset Fines; and see also Hutchins' Dorset, citing Close Roll of 12 Ric. II). Moreover in Materials illustrative of the Reign of Henry VII, vol. ii, pp. 380-83, there is an enrolment dated 16 Dec. 1488, of an "agreement made by the Earl of Northumberland, the Earl of Ormond, Edward Ponynges Knt., and Thomas Seymour Knt., for the settlement of their contentions respecting ... the hereditaments which were sometime of Sir Guy de Brien Knyght." "Dame Aviss Countesse of Wiltes, than ryght heire to the seid Sir Guy de Brien" is mentioned, and further it was "determyned bitween the said parties that the said erle of Northumberland is and oweth to be takyn and reputed as heir generall to the said Sir Guy de Brian." The above note has been amplified and materially altered in sight of information kindly supplied by W. H. B. Bird. V.G.
The suggestion that Elizabeth, the wife of Robert FitzPayn, was a daughter of the elder Guy de Bryan (d. 1390), is confirmed by a reference in the wife of his son, the younger Guy de Bryan (d. 1386), to "mon tresch[er]e fr[er]e Robard le Fitzpayn" - showing that Robert was his brother-in-law [Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica, vol. 3, pp. 253, 254 (1836)]. The chronology suggests that she would have been Guy's daughter by a marriage earlier than that to Elizabeth Montagu.
[This evidence was pointed out by Paul Reed in October 1998.
The question was also discussed by Richard Borthwick.
Item last updated: 21 February 2005.]
Volume 2, page 362 (as modified by volume 14):
He [Sir Guy de Bryan, 1st son and heir apparent of Guy de Bryan (d. 1390)] who d. v.p., 1386 (will dat. 7 July 1383) [Collect. Topog. et Geneal., vol. 3, pp. 253-4], Inq. p. m. 9 Ric. II (1385/6), m. Alice, who was living 20 May 1409 [Cal. Close Rolls, 1409-13, p. 501], and was executrix to her father-in-law 27 Jan. 1393/4.
Alice is identified in Complete Peerage, vol. 4, pp. 299, 300 as the daughter and heir of Sir Robert de Bures, of Bures St. Mary, Suffolk.
Sir Guy's will was proved at Rampisham, Dorset, on 30 March 1386 [Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica, vol. 3, p. 254 (1836)].
[The identification of Alice was pointed out by Henry Sutliff, in June 2002.
Item last updated: 22 February 2005.]