|SOME NOTES ON MEDIEVAL ENGLISH GENEALOGY|
Volume 10, page 663 (as modified by volume 14):
He [Richard (de Poynings), Lord Poynings (d. 1387)] m. Isabel, da. and (in 1392-93) h. of Robert (who took the name of FITZPAYN), yr. s. of Sir Richard (DE GREY), LORD GREY (of Codnor), by Joan, da. of Sir Robert (FITZPAYN), LORD FITZPAYN, by Isobel, da. of Sir John DE CLIFFORD ...
The original text mentioned an Elizabeth Bryan, but was ambiguously phrased, so that it was unclear whether she was the wife of Robert, the father of Isabel, or the wife of Robert, the father of Joan. Volume 14 removed the reference to Elizabeth Bryan, presumably in the belief that she was incorrectly being described as the wife of the latter Robert; in fact, she was the wife of the younger Robert.
Elizabeth de Bryan is now known to have been the daughter, not the sister, of Sir Guy (de Bryan), Lord Bryan (who d. 1390) - see Bryan or Briene, volume 2, page 361, note h.
A less ambiguous way of organising the original text,
incorporating the correction of Elizabeth de Bryan's parentage,
would be to describe the
wife of Richard de Poynings as follows:
Isabel, da. and (in 1392-93) h. of Robert (who took the name of FITZPAYN) (yr. s. of Sir Richard (DE GREY), LORD GREY (of Codnor), by Joan, da. of Sir Robert (FITZPAYN), LORD FITZPAYN), by Elizabeth, da. of Sir Guy (DE BRYAN), LORD BRYAN.
The Isobel, daughter of Sir John de Clifford, introduced in vol. 14, was the wife of the second Sir Robert mentioned above, the father of Joan [Complete Peerage, vol. 5, p. 450].
[This problem was pointed out by Richard Borthwick in October 1998. This and
related matters were further discussed in depth by Paul Reed.
Item last updated: 22 February 2005]
Volume 10, pages 664, 665 (as modified by volume 14):
He [Sir Richard de Poynings (d. 1429)] m., 2ndly, circa 1423, Eleanor, widow of Sir John DE ARUNDEL, de jure LORD MAUTRAVERS, and by the admission of 1433 EARL OF ARUNDEL (d. 21 Apr. 1421), and da. of Sir John BERKELEY, of Beverstone, co. Glouc., by his 1st wife, Elizabeth, da. and h. of Sir John BETTESHORNE, of Betteshorne in Sopley, Hants.
ELEANOR DE POYNINGS, de jure suo jure BARONESS POYNINGS, granddaughter and heir, being da. and h. of the abovenamed Sir Richard, was b. about 1422.(e)
Page 665, note e:
According to the inq. p. m. of her grandfather's widow. The inq. p. m. of her grandfather vary her age by 6 years.
Richard and Eleanor were married between 8 April 1423 (marriage settlement) and 16 June 1423 [Suffolk Record Office, Bury St Edmunds Branch, 449/2/648, 663; online abstract at Access to Archives]. Clearly if the younger Eleanor was the daughter of the elder Eleanor, she must have been born later than 1422.
[This information was provided by Douglas Richardson in October 2004.
Item last updated: 2 December 2004.]